Below is a proof read transcript of our conversation with Roger McKenzie on the Roots of Racism. Listen to the Episode here:
Ben Stevenson – 0:15
Welcome to Red Star Podcast.
Ben Stevenson – 0:17
For the second episode, we wanted to delve into some of the events that had happened in the UK over the summer.
Ben Stevenson – 0:24
The origins and roots of racism.
Ben Stevenson – 0:28
So we decided to do interview Roger Mackenzie, a trade unionist and former assistant general secretary of Britain’s largest union, Unison.
Ben Stevenson – 0:44
We delved into all sorts of different subjects.
Ben Stevenson – 0:46
So sit back, relax, and listen.
Ben Stevenson – 0:53
I’ve got Roger Mackenzie here with me.
Ben Stevenson – 0:55
Roger’s, amongst other things, the international ace, of the Morning Star, but he’s an experienced trade unionist and, anti-racist activist.
Ben Stevenson – 1:04
And I thought we’d really just kick off with what I suppose has been most present in people’s minds, which has been the events of the summer.
Ben Stevenson – 1:15
Almost hesitant to kind of categorize it because I think certain people have categorized it in the way of you know?
Ben Stevenson – 1:24
I mean, people have talked about far right thuggery rather than sort of out and out racist pogroms, which some people are quite comfortable calling it that.
Ben Stevenson – 1:35
But, I mean, whathas been your experience of the kind of events?
Ben Stevenson – 1:40
Because it certainly shocked me to my call.
Ben Stevenson – 1:43
You know?
Roger McKenzie – 1:44
Well, I mean, I think well, firstly, thanks for having me on.
Roger McKenzie – 1:48
Re really good.
Roger McKenzie – 1:50
I think, I think one of the things with all of this is that, there’s a lot of people who descend into sloppy thinking really quickly.
Roger McKenzie – 2:00
And I and I think that’s, that’s really unfortunate.
Roger McKenzie – 2:05
One of the things that I’m really keen on is that we get our theory right because I think theory enables us, you know, without sounding like on somebody, you know, kind of theoretical kind of that’s all I think.
Roger McKenzie – 2:21
That’s all I do and that’s all I think about.
Roger McKenzie – 2:23
But I think in something like this, it’s really important that we are crystal clear about what we’re dealing with because I think that determines what we do.
Roger McKenzie – 2:34
So I think, labelling everybody who was part of these disturbances, these riots, these, you know, these attacks sometimes as fascists, I think is lazy thinking.
Roger McKenzie – 2:52
I think some of them were, for sure.
Roger McKenzie – 2:52
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 2:55
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 2:55
And I think the far right have been really quick to take advantage of what is really, I think, there’s a lot of discontent around a lot of different things.
Roger McKenzie – 3:08
And I think one of the things the key things that, you know, as, you know, I’m I’m a Marxist.
Roger McKenzie – 3:13
One of the things that, you know, I always think about with, as a Marxist is, well, what are the material circumstances that are facing people to, which would force people to do the things that they’re doing?
Roger McKenzie – 3:29
So, I I I go back constantly at the moment to, the fact that peep there’s far too many people in this country at the moment who are struggling to put bread on the table and struggling to keep a roof over their heads.
Roger McKenzie – 3:45
They can’t pay their heating.
Roger McKenzie – 3:47
They can’t look forward to a holiday.
Roger McKenzie – 3:49
They can’t they can’t do the good things.
Roger McKenzie – 3:51
And lots of people, are struggling to hang on to their jobs.
Roger McKenzie – 3:55
You know, we’re just about to enter into, you know, mass austerity again, which we thought we’d seen the back of even, you know but actually, we’re back in that situation.
Roger McKenzie – 4:08
People are bothered about that.
Roger McKenzie – 4:10
People are concerned, and they’re looking for answers.
Roger McKenzie – 4:13
What I think is really not good enough is I think the response of the left, hasn’t been strong enough over the years because all of this stuff that we’re dealing with has been years in the making.
Roger McKenzie – 4:30
Oh, yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 4:31
You know, I mean, just years in the making where, you know, Communist party, the left, hasn’t really been strong enough in terms of offering, an alternative for people.
Roger McKenzie – 4:44
So it’s really easy.
Roger McKenzie – 4:45
When somebody comes in and says, well, it’s all them over there.
Roger McKenzie – 4:48
That’s the problem.
Roger McKenzie – 4:49
Then it’s an easy kind of response.
Roger McKenzie – 4:52
Well, no one else is saying that.
Roger McKenzie – 4:53
I’m saying, well, it must be them over there.
Roger McKenzie – 4:55
You know?
Ben Stevenson – 4:56
I I remember in 2,005, the European elections, the BNP top in the list in Barnsley.
Ben Stevenson – 5:02
And it was like, Barnsley, hold on a minute.
Ben Stevenson – 5:05
You know, this used to be a bastion of the labour movement.
Ben Stevenson – 5:08
So you’re right that these things have been sort of bubbling away under the surface for quite some time.
Roger McKenzie – 5:12
But, Ben, one of the problems with all of this is when you talk about somewhere like Barnsley, because I I remember you look at Stoke.
Roger McKenzie – 5:21
You know?
Roger McKenzie – 5:22
I mean, Stoke had a massive problem at the same time, as well with a load of BMPs getting elected onto their council.
Roger McKenzie – 5:28
In fact, they nearly took over the council.
Roger McKenzie – 5:30
I was I was, was in the region, at the time.
Roger McKenzie – 5:34
But the prob but the problem is that I know when I’ve been to these places in the past and places that have called themselves bastions of socialism, I mean, even to places like Liverpool, I’ve had race racist abuse at these places.
Roger McKenzie – 5:48
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 5:49
You know?
Roger McKenzie – 5:49
So, again, I just think it’s lazy just to think that, you know, this is all about, the organizations of the far right.
Roger McKenzie – 5:57
Because I can tell you this, is that I mean, I spent my working life campaigning against racism in the workplace and in communities.
Roger McKenzie – 6:05
I haven’t particularly seen a drop off, in that over the years.
Roger McKenzie – 6:11
In fact, I’ve had loads of people running around telling me that, things are getting better.
Roger McKenzie – 6:16
Well, really?
Roger McKenzie – 6:17
You know?
Roger McKenzie – 6:17
Well, try and be on the end of some of the abuse.
Roger McKenzie – 6:20
Try and be on the end of where I am now, where I live in Oxford.
Roger McKenzie – 6:24
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 6:25
You know, so, you know, I I have walked down the street.
Roger McKenzie – 6:30
I’ve lived there for 20 years, but, you know, I’ve walked down the street here, and have people wind down the windows of their cars and throw eggs at me and call me the n word out the car.
Roger McKenzie – 6:40
Right?
Roger McKenzie – 6:41
And that’s in Oxford where there’s no tourist.
Roger McKenzie – 6:44
There’s no right wing, on the council.
Roger McKenzie – 6:48
And yet, you know, so it’s too easy.
Roger McKenzie – 6:51
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 6:52
But I think couple of things going on, Ben.
Roger McKenzie – 6:54
I think firstly, we have to separate off, right, you know, racism and fascism.
Roger McKenzie – 7:02
And I think we have to have a clear understanding that they’re related, but they’re not the same.
Roger McKenzie – 7:07
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 7:08
And that but that we need to not think that all we need to do is to deal with, say, the far right or deal with these issues that have arisen over there is that we have to, the only way dealing with it is to be on a demonstration or rally or something.
Roger McKenzie – 7:27
And we do need to do those things.
Roger McKenzie – 7:29
Like, you know, we need to be there and show solidarity with people who are under attack.
Roger McKenzie – 7:34
Of course, we do.
Roger McKenzie – 7:35
But but I’d say if people, I’ve come across far too many people think that’s it.
Roger McKenzie – 7:39
And they’ll go back to the workplace and don’t deal with racism in the workplace.
Roger McKenzie – 7:43
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 7:44
No.
Roger McKenzie – 7:44
I mean, I I’ve been running some been involved in some, I I think progressively better courses at the GFTU, General Federation of Trade Unions, about, you know, the roots of racism.
Roger McKenzie – 7:57
And they are so important that we understand where this stuff is coming from because unless we understand where it’s coming from, we will not understand what is going to make a difference, to dealing with those issues in workplaces and in communities as well.
Roger McKenzie – 8:14
So there’s a number of different things that are getting jumbled up about these sorts of things.
Roger McKenzie – 8:20
But to but the mistake that I saw made was where everybody was dismissed as being a fascist.
Roger McKenzie – 8:27
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 8:28
Right.
Roger McKenzie – 8:29
And that is just wrong.
Roger McKenzie – 8:30
What actually happened was the far right took over the campaigns Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 8:34
And led the campaigns.
Roger McKenzie – 8:35
And loads of people who were concerned about those issues Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 8:38
Then took part in those rallies and marches and things.
Ben Stevenson – 8:42
That was quite a deliberate tactic.
Ben Stevenson – 8:43
We saw them really pivoting to those issues online of looking at things like you, Les, of looking at things like, instances of crime, in deprived neighbourhoods, you know, of targeting sort of grooming gangs and things like that.
Ben Stevenson – 9:03
You know?
Ben Stevenson – 9:04
In a sense, stepping out of there, I suppose, traditional, you know, neo Nazi adjacent, ideology and kind of looking to identify issues that that, like you say, people might just be concerned about from a, a local perspective.
Ben Stevenson – 9:25
You know, so absolutely, I think you’re right to that we need to be a bit smarter, don’t we, about understanding what is the ideology that is driving it.
Ben Stevenson – 9:36
And I suppose the way I always sort of some summit because, you know, I I get people who say Nigel Farage is the best thing since life bred on trade union courses.
Ben Stevenson – 9:46
You know?
Ben Stevenson – 9:47
Fortunately, not too many of them, but I do still get them, when I’m teaching in certain parts of Britain.
Ben Stevenson – 9:58
And, you know, obviously, it’s, you know, I challenge it, and there’s a way to challenge it.
Ben Stevenson – 10:02
And, you know, in the classroom, that’s different to if I was down in the pub and all the rest of it.
Ben Stevenson – 10:09
But, you know, there is there is clearly an intersection, isn’t it?
Ben Stevenson – 10:13
It’s it’s sort of like saying, not everybody who is far right is a violent, racist, but all the racist violent people are on the far right.
Ben Stevenson – 10:24
So it’s trying to trying to decouple that sometimes, is can be a
Roger McKenzie – 10:28
tricky I mean, I mean, I I would start I mean, one of the things I was thinking about the other day, I was I mean, years ago in the early eighties, I was a housing officer in Warsaw.
Roger McKenzie – 10:39
And I remember that one of the most powerful groups, that existed in Warsaw at the time was something called the Warsaw Council as Tenants Association.
Roger McKenzie – 10:51
And I mean, it’s I mean, it’s essentially about 3 people, communist party mainly.
Roger McKenzie – 10:56
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 10:57
But it’s about 3 people who ran it.
Roger McKenzie – 11:00
But I’ll tell you what, the council, you know, was really concerned because they knew that this organization could turn out 100 if not thousands of people to lobby the town hall.
Roger McKenzie – 11:10
Now what came into my mind when I started to see a load of this stuff over the summer, I started to think I remembered this.
Ben Stevenson – 11:10
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 11:17
And I thought, you know, it was would have been really easy, right, back in the day if the far right had taken over a campaign like around housing and just decided that they were going to lead that march.
Roger McKenzie – 11:32
They were going to lead that campaign.
Roger McKenzie – 11:35
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 11:35
And so what were we going to do?
Roger McKenzie – 11:37
Were we going to dismiss all those people who were concerned about the state of the terrible state of housing, actually, as it was, were we gonna dismiss them all as fascists?
Roger McKenzie – 11:47
But actually, all of the people who took part in those, campaigns, we never call them communists.
Roger McKenzie – 11:47
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 11:53
No.
Roger McKenzie – 11:54
You know, we never thought that they were all part of the communist party
Ben Stevenson – 11:57
No.
Roger McKenzie – 11:57
Or where were you know?
Roger McKenzie – 11:59
But actually, we were introducing them to politics.
Roger McKenzie – 12:02
And what really concerns me is that this is what the far right are doing.
Roger McKenzie – 12:06
So people who have a genuine concern about a whole bunch of issues, you know, you know, leave aside the actual racists, and there are racists within these organizations.
Roger McKenzie – 12:17
There are fascists within these organizations, but we cannot dismiss all these people who have a real concern about what they are faced with, you know, years, decades of underinvestment’s in public services, in their housing, and then they are being told that your winter heating allowance is gonna be stripped off you.
Roger McKenzie – 12:36
They got they want somebody to stand up for them.
Roger McKenzie – 12:39
And you know what?
Roger McKenzie – 12:40
It should be the left who are standing up for them and not the right because we need to be introducing them to why this stuff is happening and what they can do about it and the collective nature of being able to do stuff about and who actually benefits from this and that they can’t it’s not good enough to blame, migrants and refugees for the issues that they’re facing when there’s a small group of people who are just getting richer and richer by the day, while the rest of us working class communities, we just get poorer and poorer.
Ben Stevenson – 13:15
I think it’s, I keep on telling everybody that I can.
Ben Stevenson – 13:20
It’s gone to 500 to 1, the ratio of, CEO pay to the average salary now.
Ben Stevenson – 13:26
It was
Roger McKenzie – 13:27
his name.
Ben Stevenson – 13:28
48 in 1968, 48 to 1.
Ben Stevenson – 13:32
So you used to, you know, it used to be at least comparable.
Ben Stevenson – 13:35
It it was you earn in a year.
Ben Stevenson – 13:38
Well, I it would take me a lifetime.
Ben Stevenson – 13:40
Now it’s it will take my 8 descendants, lifetimes to make it Wow.
Ben Stevenson – 13:46
What you’re making
Roger McKenzie – 13:47
I’ve known that.
Roger McKenzie – 13:48
I’ve known that
Ben Stevenson – 13:49
kind of relationship.
Ben Stevenson – 13:49
But I I think it it point doesn’t it point to, you know, so much of the degradation of society in a way.
Ben Stevenson – 13:58
When you’ve got that level of inequality, you almost have to come up with, you know, people other things to blame, disabled people, migrants, public sector workers, railway workers, pensioners, you know, in order to basically get away with it on a day to day basis.
Roger McKenzie – 14:25
It’s but it but it’s what they’ve always done.
Roger McKenzie – 14:28
The ruling classes have always done this.
Roger McKenzie – 14:30
They’ve always, tried to play us off against each other, while they’re happily, you know, raking it in, as you say, with that kind of ratio.
Roger McKenzie – 14:40
So so I I think that I mean, for me, one of the one of the things is how do we so always comes down to me, how do we build working class unity?
Roger McKenzie – 14:50
You know, black and white, you know, male or female, whatever.
Roger McKenzie – 14:55
Right?
Roger McKenzie – 14:56
How do we build that unity?
Roger McKenzie – 14:58
Well, we don’t build unity by having a go at people and saying, well, because you have a genuine concern about your housing or whatever, that you are now a fascist because you you’ve seen somebody trying to, you know, and, you know, of you know, they’re doing it for their own reasons, but somebody is trying to do something.
Roger McKenzie – 15:21
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 15:22
And and and as as they’re doing it from their far right politics, but they’re but they’ve looked they actually I think, you know, they learn from the communists of the sixties seventies, I think.
Roger McKenzie – 15:34
I think they learn from us.
Roger McKenzie – 15:36
May maybe they’ve read books like Phil Pritons, you know, Flag Stays Red.
Roger McKenzie – 15:41
Maybe they’ve read those things and just say, you know, maybe we should be doing those things from the right.
Roger McKenzie – 15:46
May maybe that not because, that that that whole history was about being part of communities, not telling communities that you are wrong for doing that, but building up and organizing with communities and all of that and making a difference with communities.
Roger McKenzie – 16:06
And then when the fascists march through the east end Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 16:09
We it’s we haven’t got to do the work.
Ben Stevenson – 16:12
I mean, I think you’re absolutely right.
Ben Stevenson – 16:15
And we don’t talk enough about inoculating people.
Ben Stevenson – 16:18
You know?
Ben Stevenson – 16:18
And that isn’t just about having, you know, a debate about immigration, you know, in an abstract sense, because, that doesn’t I don’t think that that that that tackles what you’re saying is the root at the root of that, those kind of issues.
Ben Stevenson – 16:36
I mean, and when anyways, I I started to see it online with the wind fuel payments cut is that people are already like, every time, you know, the RMT are having to put out tweets that says, don’t blame us for the wind fuel payments.
Ben Stevenson – 16:51
That’s not connected.
Ben Stevenson – 16:54
You know?
Ben Stevenson – 16:54
And and so, you know, they’re already starting to, again, pick apart, divide, and rule, you know, come up with, oh, it is, you know, because the government has decided to do this, that, and the other, rather than actually saying, well, are we not being led down the path of austerity again and continued austerity?
Ben Stevenson – 17:20
And
Roger McKenzie – 17:20
Well yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 17:21
And we spend you know, I mean, I mean, simple things like, well, we’ve been let down this austerity because allegedly there’s no money, but we spend 1,000,000,000 and 1,000,000,000 on nuclear weapons still.
Roger McKenzie – 17:33
You know?
Roger McKenzie – 17:34
We spend 1,000,000,000, that we spend on weapons for, that go to Ukraine.
Roger McKenzie – 17:42
You know?
Roger McKenzie – 17:42
I mean, we spend 1,000,000,000 on stuff that somebody somewhere in the ruling classes has decided is a priority.
Roger McKenzie – 17:50
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 17:50
But they’re clearly at the same time to make that decision, they have to they have to be aware that they are choosing that over welfare.
Roger McKenzie – 18:01
They have to be aware of that, that they have chosen not to make sure that the elderly are being looked after, that that schools aren’t falling to pieces, which many of them are, that our health service, should be still free at the point of delivery, should be free and not being talked about, you know, which is obviously where they’re leading to towards us having to bloody pay for it.
Roger McKenzie – 18:25
I mean, it’s ludicrous.
Roger McKenzie – 18:25
You know?
Roger McKenzie – 18:27
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 18:28
And yet nobody questions those big ticket items, which they say is for our security, but it’s hard to see that.
Roger McKenzie – 18:35
But but, frankly, the security for me is knowing that I’ve got somewhere decent to live.
Roger McKenzie – 18:42
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 18:42
That my my child, you know, if I still had a school aged child, that that they had some they had a school that that they could get to on public transport, that that was safe when they got there, that the teachers were the best possible teachers, I.
Roger McKenzie – 18:58
They were getting paid properly, that the school was in good shape, and that there was some decent job prospects and so on afterwards, or if they didn’t wanna do, you know, education isn’t about just for jobs, but they could go on to university if they want to study on a philosophy or history or whatever and not have to do things that were just about a job.
Roger McKenzie – 19:20
So all of those things are choices that are made.
Roger McKenzie – 19:24
And what we should be just saying as I think a trade union movements, I think as left political people, I think we should be making the case for what we stand for.
Roger McKenzie – 19:35
And I think we spend far too much time, having to be defensive about thing.
Roger McKenzie – 19:40
And as far as I’m concerned, we should be going out and making the case, not you know, proselyting to people, but actually going out and having conversations with people about what is actually happening in your workplace.
Roger McKenzie – 19:53
Why is it that it’s so difficult to get a pay rise?
Roger McKenzie – 19:56
Right?
Roger McKenzie – 19:56
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 19:57
And for ordinary working people when some people are doing so much better, why is it so difficult that, why is it so hard to get decent housing for people, that people can afford, so that they don’t have to go without food at the end of the month so that they can afford their, the place that they live.
Roger McKenzie – 20:17
You know?
Roger McKenzie – 20:18
I mean, these are things that we should be really confident about as socialists and communists and going out and making the case.
Roger McKenzie – 20:26
And I think, because we we were too far behind the ball, I think.
Roger McKenzie – 20:33
I think the and we spend a lot of time, having to say, well, they’re wrong.
Roger McKenzie – 20:40
That’s not right.
Roger McKenzie – 20:42
And whereas we’re saying the other people, but we spend enough time talking about, well, how is it we’re gonna get our message out there?
Roger McKenzie – 20:49
How are we gonna go out and talk with people and be clear that that message, is not one that we have to go and preach to people, but we have to work with people at a really local level as we used to do, actually.
Ben Stevenson – 21:03
I think I mean, I think from in some ways, the fundamental difference between, I suppose, us and the if I’m alright in that sense is that, even if we might identify the same issue, the very fact that is you know, I mean, you talked about the tenants associations, and that that always brings to mind.
Ben Stevenson – 21:23
The fact that, you know, we want to find collective solutions because we believe in the same way that we’re committed to trading in this because, collective bargaining is beneficial to us, and we can see that demonstrably.
Ben Stevenson – 21:38
You know, the TC frequently puts out, doesn’t it, the difference between a unionized workplace and a nonunionized workplace?
Ben Stevenson – 21:46
So we know that banding together, we can do better as individuals as well as a whole, whereas that ethos is not contained within reform UK.
Ben Stevenson – 21:59
So I I think you’re right.
Ben Stevenson – 22:01
In some ways, we perhaps need to be a bit more ruthless politically.
Roger McKenzie – 22:08
I think I think we also need to understand that there are parts of the working class community where collective collectivism, solidarity is is almost, I think, but this isn’t Santee Rosie, but I think it’s inbuilt.
Roger McKenzie – 22:26
So the black community in particular, I think, you know, we we’ve had to learn that, alright, we’ll do individual acts of resistance to racism.
Roger McKenzie – 22:39
But we’ve we’ve learned from bitter experience from challenging enslavement to challenging, well, challenging and defeating enslavement to challenging and defeating colonialism.
Roger McKenzie – 22:53
But collective approach is the most successful way of making progress.
Roger McKenzie – 23:01
And that didn’t just stop when people arrived in in Britain.
Roger McKenzie – 23:06
That was well understood because actually we have to do it here as well because the trade union movement weren’t always on our side, you know.
Roger McKenzie – 23:13
I mean, just look at, I know Imperial typewriters is a is a is one example, where actually the union at the time was, in cahoots with the the National Front as it was at the time and the employer.
Roger McKenzie – 23:28
You look at Grunwick as an example, where, you know, I what never gets talked about Grunwick is the hunger strike that took place on the steps of Congress House.
Roger McKenzie – 23:42
And one of the reasons, that one of the reasons that I think is such a shame that they’re selling off Congress House
Ben Stevenson – 23:49
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 23:50
Is because, the memory of that will quickly be erased Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 23:55
Unless we make sure it’s not erased.
Roger McKenzie – 23:58
Because I you know, trying to I mean, I when I worked at congress, as I was thought, it’s a really it’s a really big deal for me to walk into this every day.
Roger McKenzie – 23:58
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 24:08
Although it was great, you know, but but I always remember that I was walking into a building was across a threshold, where a load of mainly Asian women were on a hunger strike.
Ben Stevenson – 24:22
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 24:23
And trade union leaders were stepping over these women to go into general council meetings.
Ben Stevenson – 24:28
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 24:29
So, you know, those and we don’t forget those things.
Roger McKenzie – 24:29
Right?
Roger McKenzie – 24:33
And we don’t forget the times when unions have told us that they’re gonna do stuff to tackle racism, and they don’t do Jack, frankly.
Roger McKenzie – 24:44
And we’ve had to do that ourselves.
Roger McKenzie – 24:46
We’ve had to force them to do those things, which was why all these, what I call communities of resistance within the trade union movements, which is sometimes called black self-organization.
Roger McKenzie – 24:59
But those communities of resistance didn’t just happen.
Roger McKenzie – 25:03
You know, this was the experience of people over the years saying this is how we have always had to deal with these things.
Roger McKenzie – 25:11
We have to stand together and collectively organize.
Roger McKenzie – 25:15
And so we’ve got lots of examples within the working class communities of solidarity and collectivism.
Roger McKenzie – 25:24
The task for us, I think, is to work out, well, how do we actually pull all that together into something that is gonna meet the challenge of this particular time that we’re in?
Ben Stevenson – 25:35
I mean, I I I remember having this sort of slightly esoteric conversation about, how now wouldn’t it be so easy?
Ben Stevenson – 25:46
Do we really even need the market in terms of dealing having a command economy?
Ben Stevenson – 25:51
You know, if we took over the towering heights of industry in that sense of collectivize, could we not just have an app to say, I need stuff.
Ben Stevenson – 25:59
I need 20 bananas next week, because I’m making banana bread, for all my friends.
Ben Stevenson – 26:05
You know?
Ben Stevenson – 26:06
It’s sort of that sometimes we do need, I think, almost simple answers to these kind of questions of, well, how would you do it?
Ben Stevenson – 26:13
How would you run society?
Roger McKenzie – 26:14
Well, you know, one of the things, Ben, that, when I was growing up, that I I remember really clearly was the way that the black community had been barred from accessing banks and stuff.
Roger McKenzie – 26:29
And so we essentially set up their own, banking system, really informal banking system, in the Jamaican community.
Roger McKenzie – 26:37
I mean, they had them in other communities.
Roger McKenzie – 26:38
Then in Jamaican community, it’s called a partner.
Roger McKenzie – 26:40
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 26:41
And basically, everybody put into this all the time.
Roger McKenzie – 26:44
And then after so many weeks, it was your turn to get some money out of this thing.
Ben Stevenson – 26:44
Yes.
Ben Stevenson – 26:51
But I and I think if we can convince people that we you know, at the moment, the working class is so busy organizing for its own survival, that, know, we haven’t got the wherewithal to run a society in in in a sense.
Roger McKenzie – 26:51
Yeah?
Ben Stevenson – 27:06
People are so busy organizing food banks, and going to them.
Ben Stevenson – 27:09
You know?
Ben Stevenson – 27:11
But that that is that society was one that we had just a few just a generation ago.
Ben Stevenson – 27:17
You know?
Ben Stevenson – 27:18
Food banks did not exist, when I was growing up.
Ben Stevenson – 27:23
You know, they are a modern invention, and they are a modern invention of austerity Britain, which is just, you know, neoliberalism on steroids.
Ben Stevenson – 27:32
So, I mean, I suppose because we’ve, you know, we’ve seen that kind of almost shift, I think, in confidence in the trade union movement.
Ben Stevenson – 27:43
You know?
Ben Stevenson – 27:44
There are times when I sort of wake up in the morning, go, I think I think we might be back now.
Ben Stevenson – 27:48
You know?
Ben Stevenson – 27:49
The forward march of labour might be resumed.
Ben Stevenson – 27:53
Do do you get that sense, or are we still faltering at the start line?
Roger McKenzie – 27:59
I think I think, we’re almost being, disqualified for a full start probably.
Ben Stevenson – 28:05
Oh, dear.
Roger McKenzie – 28:07
It’s, I think I think I think it’s a it’s a really I think it’s a really difficult moment for the trade union movement because there was certainly during COVID and so on, there’s certainly a growth.
Roger McKenzie – 28:20
And I was, assistant general secretary of Unison at the time and I was responsible for organizing.
Roger McKenzie – 28:28
I said this is great and obviously I take full credit for the growth in membership and my responsibility.
Roger McKenzie – 28:36
But being really serious was that I was really afraid that it could be quite a temporary thing.
Roger McKenzie – 28:42
Because there’s a, every survey you see tells you that everybody thinks that, being, trade unions are a good idea.
Roger McKenzie – 28:42
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 28:54
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 28:54
Right?
Roger McKenzie – 28:54
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 28:55
And certainly even more people who are our members don’t wanna do anything when they’re in.
Roger McKenzie – 29:00
They don’t wanna be active.
Roger McKenzie – 29:00
No.
Roger McKenzie – 29:02
So so I think there’s real problems with that.
Roger McKenzie – 29:04
So when COVID came along, loads of people saw the benefits, understood it, and joined some massive rise in membership, massive rise in membership during, the, the strikes that took place recently.
Roger McKenzie – 29:21
But now membership is declining again, is my understanding.
Roger McKenzie – 29:28
So I think we have to be really, really kind of I think what I said before about just not being lazy with our thinking.
Roger McKenzie – 29:41
I think we have to do it again with the trade union movement for and I think we have to be honest about things.
Roger McKenzie – 29:48
And the honest is that, there’s far too many people within the trade union movement in the leaderships who are still interested in, can you get better insurance and car, you know, kind of all of this sort of stuff, car breakdown things.
Roger McKenzie – 30:07
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 30:08
And there’s the and I have to say, for me, there’s nothing wrong intrinsically with that.
Roger McKenzie – 30:13
But if that’s your raison d’etre for trade unionism Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 30:16
Then I think that’s a problem.
Roger McKenzie – 30:17
Because for me, it’s about collectivism, people standing up to improve society, and to improve people’s terms and conditions.
Roger McKenzie – 30:27
And for me, that’s the most important thing.
Roger McKenzie – 30:29
So, I think there’s been a lot of people who have been quite comfortable with the rise, but are not really clear about what to do with the fall.
Roger McKenzie – 30:44
That’s right.
Roger McKenzie – 30:46
When I look at most trade unions, I mean, from I think for me, the biggest problem is we haven’t got a strong rank and file movement in this country anymore.
Roger McKenzie – 31:01
I don’t think we have.
Roger McKenzie – 31:03
There’s not nearly enough, stewards, to do the job.
Roger McKenzie – 31:09
I think back to Unison, there’s 300,000 workplaces.
Roger McKenzie – 31:14
I mean, not giving away any confidences because I don’t know the current figures, but I I said it enough on platforms at the time.
Roger McKenzie – 31:22
So it’s so it’s public knowledge.
Roger McKenzie – 31:24
But, but I know that when I was responsible, for, in the union, that there were less than 20,000 people who were stewards.
Roger McKenzie – 31:34
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 31:35
And the average 300,000 workplaces?
Ben Stevenson – 31:38
Yeah.
Ben Stevenson – 31:39
And the average age, is majority are over the age of 50.
Roger McKenzie – 31:47
Yeah.
Ben Stevenson – 31:48
So whenever I go into teaching new reps now, I’m quite honest about sort of saying, well, you know, there’s almost a generational shift that’s gonna come and that needs to come, you know, in terms of who the what that makeup of that rank and file is.
Ben Stevenson – 32:08
And that is people who are become you know, who have joined as a result of the strike the kind of strike wave and so on.
Ben Stevenson – 32:15
And and there is a sense almost that we have been here before because we’ve had massive enthusiasm, major membership drive uptake, didn’t necessarily leave any in terms of the Labour Party.
Ben Stevenson – 32:29
And, you know, nobody would say that that that led to transformative change, either in terms of transformative change within the Labour Party, maybe perhaps in the wrong direction.
Ben Stevenson – 32:41
But, you know, certainly, it hasn’t led to transformative change in a substantial way for ordinary working people.
Ben Stevenson – 32:49
You know?
Ben Stevenson – 32:50
We’ve got a Labour government now, and, you know, they’re clearly going to be less hostile than the Tories are to the trade union movement.
Ben Stevenson – 32:50
Okay.
Ben Stevenson – 33:02
And they’ve settled the largely politically inflated disputes that were just of the Tories making by and large.
Roger McKenzie – 33:13
And it just seems to me that, both for the trade unions and the Labour Party, I I’m just kind of thinking there’s a fundamental question.
Roger McKenzie – 33:23
What what is it that what is your reason for existence?
Roger McKenzie – 33:27
You know, what is it that you are, for?
Roger McKenzie – 33:31
You know, what is it that you are supposed to be about as a as a as a as an organization?
Roger McKenzie – 33:38
So for unions, you know, if it’s just about, you know, existing as an organization, then good luck exist.
Roger McKenzie – 33:49
Right?
Roger McKenzie – 33:50
If it’s about bringing about fundamental change in favour of working class people, then I think that’s something different.
Roger McKenzie – 33:57
I think that’s more and similar questions for the Labour Party as well.
Roger McKenzie – 34:01
If the Labour Party is just to be in power, which frankly is what they keep telling me whenever I’ve had a discussion with any of them, they said, well, no.
Roger McKenzie – 34:11
It’s important to be in power.
Roger McKenzie – 34:12
Great.
Roger McKenzie – 34:13
And I’m sure you will be nicer.
Roger McKenzie – 34:16
But frankly, somebody smiling when they do austerity to me is still austerity.
Roger McKenzie – 34:16
Right?
Roger McKenzie – 34:22
And frankly, I feel like punching you in the face if you’re smiling when you’re cutting benefits and cutting the services around me, frankly.
Roger McKenzie – 34:30
So what is it that you are for?
Roger McKenzie – 34:31
And this has always been a fundamental question about the labour movement.
Roger McKenzie – 34:35
And if we if we are just to be an easier kind of root for capital to exist, you know, then, yeah, that’s for me, that’s not good enough.
Roger McKenzie – 34:50
I I think we have to be the organizations that are talking about really shifting wealth and power in favour of working class people.
Roger McKenzie – 34:59
And that means making decisions that favour working class people.
Roger McKenzie – 35:03
And I’ve and, you know, I know this can be done because, you know, there’s mentioned the military and how much you spend on the military.
Roger McKenzie – 35:11
But, you know, that’s a choice.
Roger McKenzie – 35:13
Right?
Roger McKenzie – 35:14
We don’t have to spend all that money on the military.
Roger McKenzie – 35:18
We don’t have to.
Roger McKenzie – 35:19
But I think we absolutely must be making sure that our elderly, are looked after, and that they don’t have to struggle, and that our kids are looked after and that they get the best education on the planet, frankly.
Roger McKenzie – 35:34
You know, take some of these 1,000,000,000 out of, nuclear weapons, the best, you know, these kind of newish nuclear weapons thing.
Roger McKenzie – 35:42
And how about this sort of thing?
Roger McKenzie – 35:44
We have we put in place some of the best schools on the planet about that.
Roger McKenzie – 35:49
Right?
Roger McKenzie – 35:50
I mean, I think we could be doing that.
Ben Stevenson – 35:50
I’m sorry.
Roger McKenzie – 35:52
And I think that’s what the trade union movement should be arguing for was done.
Roger McKenzie – 35:55
I understand that some unions who are, you know, well, our members, you know, make some of these weapons and all that.
Roger McKenzie – 36:02
Well, you know, I’m sorry.
Roger McKenzie – 36:04
You know?
Roger McKenzie – 36:05
I think there’s some bigger pro I think there’s some bigger priorities there.
Ben Stevenson – 36:08
Absolutely.
Ben Stevenson – 36:08
Yeah?
Ben Stevenson – 36:09
I think, you know I mean, if Finland can do it, you know, it we’re not and the other point, I suppose, is that even, you know, most people on the left are talking about even if we are talking about transformative change, it’s still, you know, radically different from what we’ve got at the moment.
Ben Stevenson – 36:32
You know, in terms of any alternative to neoliberalism has got to be, quite radically, different and will be, because and I think, you know, the difference it perhaps is that we do understand power
Roger McKenzie – 36:49
in
Ben Stevenson – 36:49
a different way to the way that Keir Starmer would, for example.
Ben Stevenson – 36:53
He Keir Starmer’s in power as far as he’s concerned.
Ben Stevenson – 36:58
You know, but in order to get to that position of power, he has had to bend to the point you know, even if you’re being optimistic about where Keir Starmer’s come from, he had to bend to the point where, he doesn’t really stand for anything other than, the continuation of the management of capitalism under its current guise.
Ben Stevenson – 37:23
Right.
Ben Stevenson – 37:23
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 37:24
Exactly.
Roger McKenzie – 37:24
And that that’s that’s a re re you make a really, really important point there, Ben, because for me, there’s a difference between in government and having real power.
Roger McKenzie – 37:34
And I think one of the reasons they worked so hard to make sure that Corbyn was never allowed to get anywhere near power because they knew what he’d do with it.
Roger McKenzie – 37:42
Because actually behind or there’s a piece in, today’s Morningstar, about it, that I wrote about, you know, these real powers, you know, the puppet masters behind these wannabe kind of genius politicians, and none of them are geniuses.
Roger McKenzie – 38:00
Right?
Roger McKenzie – 38:01
But there’s a there’s a these the real people, you know, the money people, and we know some of them, but loads of them.
Roger McKenzie – 38:09
They lurk in the shadows.
Roger McKenzie – 38:11
But they are the ones who really control stuff.
Roger McKenzie – 38:11
Yeah.
Ben Stevenson – 38:14
It is.
Roger McKenzie – 38:15
And that’s why the likes of Starmer have to bend is because these are the people who’ve got the money and the real power.
Ben Stevenson – 38:21
I I think it was 4,000,000, wasn’t it, from a hedge fund Yeah.
Ben Stevenson – 38:25
To the Labor Party in donations, single, largest donation.
Ben Stevenson – 38:30
And they used to rely upon trade union money.
Ben Stevenson – 38:32
So even, you know, without being too much of a Marxist, you can say, you know, if you’ve gone from relying upon trade union money to relying upon, money that is provided by the people who are basically looking to continue to deindustrialize the country and continue to financialize the country, you know, then you are on the wrong side, of history.
Roger McKenzie – 38:59
Well, I just to be honest, I don’t think the Labour Party gives a monkey about trade unions.
Roger McKenzie – 39:06
The trade union donation, I think they would be really happy with the kind of democratic party in the States kind of relationship, where there’s just you just fund an election campaign, basically.
Roger McKenzie – 39:20
But they don’t you know, this kind of inconvenient kind of democracy thing, you know, where people have a voice.
Roger McKenzie – 39:27
They’re not interested in that.
Roger McKenzie – 39:28
No.
Ben Stevenson – 39:29
I mean, especially when it nearly delivered, a Corbyn prime ministership.
Ben Stevenson – 39:29
Absolutely.
Ben Stevenson – 39:34
They can’t let it get that close again.
Ben Stevenson – 39:36
You know?
Ben Stevenson – 39:36
We’ve got to have, the 2 managed parties of capital, be constrained in their operations.
Ben Stevenson – 39:47
And, you know, but we we are kind of it’s a strange it’s a strange situation, isn’t it?
Ben Stevenson – 39:52
Because, you know, we’re seeing consensus, that consensus breakdown in in dramatic ways across Europe with the rise of the far right and so on.
Ben Stevenson – 40:04
And, yeah, definitely, the left needs to get its sort of, its skates on.
Ben Stevenson – 40:10
But I I think, you know, we can we can definitely learn, like you were saying, from, you know, our experience of how we organize, what are the issues, housing, how do we tackle that.
Ben Stevenson – 40:25
You know, we can’t organize rent strikes anymore because who is your landlord now?
Ben Stevenson – 40:32
It’s 20 different people on one street, you know, if not more.
Ben Stevenson – 40:37
So, you know, that’s not the organizing.
Ben Stevenson – 40:40
But there but there are things like, you know, ACORN and, the tenants associations and so on, and that could point the way forward.
Ben Stevenson – 40:51
And, certainly, we I think we need to be bold about, you know, saying that the majority of the population are on our side.
Ben Stevenson – 40:57
They want the public sphere to occupy the majority of what they experience on the day to day level.
Ben Stevenson – 41:05
Rail, post, transport as a whole, you know, mail, health, education.
Ben Stevenson – 41:12
They want it all nationalized, and they’re not to be private sector involvement and for it not to be something that is housing as well, that is not open to speculation.
Roger McKenzie – 41:24
Well, I mean, I I I think one I think the I think for me, one of the reasons why people want those things, so let’s say, nationalizing the railways, It’s because they look at it and say, well, what we’ve got is far too expensive.
Roger McKenzie – 41:42
Doesn’t work a lot of the time.
Roger McKenzie – 41:44
It’s not very comfortable on a lot of the trains.
Roger McKenzie – 41:47
And we think having some more control over that, state control over that, will provide a better service, and cheaper as well because actually we can’t afford to you know, the price is just rocketing.
Roger McKenzie – 42:03
So so Pete so so so actually, people are right about those things.
Roger McKenzie – 42:10
Because when I look across, the globe and look at state run transport systems, it’s really clear.
Roger McKenzie – 42:19
I mean, it’s not even debatable.
Roger McKenzie – 42:21
I mean, it’s it’s really, really clear that that it’s cheap.
Roger McKenzie – 42:25
You know, I was in China recently, and I went on one of those bullet trains.
Roger McKenzie – 42:30
These trains, you know, I mean, just really comfortable smack on time, you know, fast to, you know, cross 100 of miles, you know, I mean, this is great stuff, you know.
Roger McKenzie – 42:43
And, you know, and, you know, I I there’s plenty of and, yeah, I was also in, earlier on this year.
Roger McKenzie – 42:50
I was also in the states.
Roger McKenzie – 42:52
Dreadful.
Roger McKenzie – 42:55
Dreadful.
Roger McKenzie – 42:55
You can’t You know?
Ben Stevenson – 42:56
You can’t go anywhere if you don’t have a car.
Ben Stevenson – 42:58
And they have to spend they have to spend waste so much land usage to occupy car parks.
Ben Stevenson – 43:07
You don’t realize how impossible it is to get around in a US town until you actually go there and realize, oh my god.
Ben Stevenson – 43:15
This is just car universe.
Ben Stevenson – 43:18
And, you know, you really do forget how you know?
Roger McKenzie – 43:18
Yeah.
Ben Stevenson – 43:24
Okay.
Ben Stevenson – 43:24
We’ve got a creaking Victorian infrastructure, but at least we do have that, at least.
Ben Stevenson – 43:30
true.
Roger McKenzie – 43:30
That’s
Ben Stevenson – 43:30
But you’re absolutely right.
Roger McKenzie – 43:30
Yeah.
Ben Stevenson – 43:32
Peep people have the lived experience, don’t they, of saying, actually, it could be done differently.
Ben Stevenson – 43:37
Look at that over there.
Ben Stevenson – 43:39
And in so many of those different areas, that that just chimes with people’s experience.
Ben Stevenson – 43:47
And that’s that is definitely the way to do it.
Ben Stevenson – 43:50
But I think I think one of the other things is, you know, we need to get bet better at is, I saw a great there was a great article in Tribune about William Coffey, who you probably know about.
Ben Stevenson – 44:04
But, I remember we, actually put him on for the anniversary of the ending of the transatlantic slave trade, we put them on this on the CP membership cards.
Ben Stevenson – 44:16
And I was like, who’s William Coffey?
Ben Stevenson – 44:18
I was like, this is rather the point, isn’t it?
Ben Stevenson – 44:26
You know, we so much of our own history is lost to us, that, you know, we almost have to remind people and I do it in every equality squeeze.
Ben Stevenson – 44:36
So when did the first black people arrive?
Ben Stevenson – 44:36
I’m like, okay.
Ben Stevenson – 44:38
Was it in 1950 2 or when the Romans came here?
Ben Stevenson – 44:43
You know?
Ben Stevenson – 44:44
It’s those simple facts that we need to drill into people.
Ben Stevenson – 44:47
And, I think we we we just need to be better at having the conversation about, you know, Britain’s colonial and slave owning past.
Ben Stevenson – 44:56
You know?
Ben Stevenson – 44:57
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 44:58
But it’s you know, so I wrote a book about some of this recently.
Roger McKenzie – 45:02
It’s a African Uhuru, it’s called, published by Manifesto Press.
Roger McKenzie – 45:06
It’s getting my little advert in there.
Ben Stevenson – 45:08
Very good.
Roger McKenzie – 45:09
But it it actually deals with the sort of points that you just made because it talks about the history of people of African descent in Britain and that that we didn’t just kind of trip off, over, you know, the gangplank at the Empire Windrush and just hit our head on Tilbury Dock or something.
Roger McKenzie – 45:32
You know?
Roger McKenzie – 45:33
I mean, we’ve been here for a considerable amount of time and made a massive contribution.
Roger McKenzie – 45:38
But through all of that got
Ben Stevenson – 45:40
the economy, the direction of it, everything.
Roger McKenzie – 45:44
Also the labour and trade union movements as well
Ben Stevenson – 45:44
You know?
Ben Stevenson – 45:47
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 45:48
And the progressive movements.
Roger McKenzie – 45:50
And that’s not always been without a fight within those movements to to have participation.
Roger McKenzie – 45:56
One of the things I write about, I mean, I don’t agree with the concept of black unions and white unions.
Roger McKenzie – 46:05
I don’t agree with that.
Roger McKenzie – 46:08
What I do know is that in the 19 thirties, there was an attempt well, they’d set up, a union called the Coloured Film Artistes Association.
Roger McKenzie – 46:22
And this was based out in Elstree Studios.
Roger McKenzie – 46:24
And the reason they did it was because of, the unions at the time were absolutely essential for you to be able to get employed, by any of the studios.
Roger McKenzie – 46:40
So they were you know, these workers were just getting, you know, kind of tribe trying to things, you know, Tarzan type tribes.
Ben Stevenson – 46:51
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 46:52
You know, just getting nothing any good.
Roger McKenzie – 46:54
And these are artists in their own right, but they were getting nothing.
Roger McKenzie – 46:59
So, when they approached the unions, the unions wasn’t helping.
Roger McKenzie – 47:03
So they set up their own union, try to affiliate to the TUC.
Roger McKenzie – 47:07
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 47:08
And, you know, you can if you look in the modern record centre at Warwick University, you can see the verbatim debate that took place at the general counsel verbatim thoroughly racist honestly.
Roger McKenzie – 47:25
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 47:26
So really so so people have that experience.
Roger McKenzie – 47:28
There was actually also the Oriental Film Artist Association as well came about for similar reasons.
Roger McKenzie – 47:35
But so that tension has always been there about we didn’t just come over with no experience of organizing.
Roger McKenzie – 47:46
But actually we were already here organizing but also and lots of it around the docs in particular.
Roger McKenzie – 47:54
But also you know, when we came over, like, my, you know, my ancestors came over and my parents came over.
Roger McKenzie – 48:04
They brought with them a knowledge of trade unionism and standing together and organizing, and it was a trade unionism that was done, where you would be in trouble with the authorities for being a trade unionist.
Roger McKenzie – 48:21
So this wasn’t like light hearted kind of let’s stick a notice on a notice board and call people to a meeting type thing.
Roger McKenzie – 48:28
Because if you did that, you’d be shot or you’d be in prison, you know.
Roger McKenzie – 48:32
So that experience was there.
Roger McKenzie – 48:35
And what we, I think, need to understand is the any unity that we we are able to develop needs to bring the best of everybody to the table, and understand when I first started getting involved, Ben, you know, it was like yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 48:53
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 48:53
So this was like I became a trade union member first time in 1979.
.
Roger McKenzie – 48:57
So this was 2 days after I left school.
Roger McKenzie – 49:06
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 49:07
And, on a building site, left school on the Friday, and went on a building site on a Monday.
Roger McKenzie – 49:17
Tuesday, I was I was named as the subs collector for the union, which meant in those days on Friday, it was my job as the youngest and blackest person on the building site to go around, climb up ladders, and try and persuade people to give some money to the union at their actual packets of me.
Roger McKenzie – 49:37
You know?
Roger McKenzie – 49:37
It was I I thought I’d had racist abuse before.
Roger McKenzie – 49:41
But, nothing like I’ve got nothing.
Roger McKenzie – 49:41
Right?
Ben Stevenson – 49:46
I I can imagine.
Ben Stevenson – 49:48
I mean, obviously, we’ve all sort of experienced, particularly those who sort of who sort of build that site, you know, what the culture can be like there, and in many workplaces.
Ben Stevenson – 49:58
But I think, you know, in lots of ways, you know, I think those things are being challenged.
Ben Stevenson – 50:07
You know, I I think you absolutely need to need to be sort of better at that.
Ben Stevenson – 50:11
I I I’ve done you know, I’ve seen some positive work being done with employers.
Ben Stevenson – 50:16
I think there is now a need to kind of say that, it’s not good enough for you to just sit on the right side of the law, you know.
Ben Stevenson – 50:26
You’ve got to actually if you’ve got issues in the workplace, then you’ve got to actually enable people to have these kind of conversations.
Ben Stevenson – 50:34
And we’ve got to have, you know, people going in educating, people about it.
Ben Stevenson – 50:41
And we’ve gotta take it as a seriously as a trade dealing issue.
Roger McKenzie – 50:45
No.
Ben Stevenson – 50:45
You know?
Roger McKenzie – 50:46
I I I agree.
Roger McKenzie – 50:47
You know, it’s, you know, I I did a lot of work in the early eighties with the fire brigade Oh, yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 50:56
Nationally.
Roger McKenzie – 50:57
And a lot of that was about, with probation service as well and business service.
Roger McKenzie – 51:02
A lot of it was about racism within those services.
Roger McKenzie – 51:06
There were some really good people at the top of those organizations who were pushing for change.
Roger McKenzie – 51:12
Sometimes the biggest difficulty was, getting people within the unions, actually, to to recognize the need to for change and to bring things on.
Roger McKenzie – 51:26
But when we did, you know, some excellent people within all of the unions that I just mentioned to, you know, doing some really good stuff in terms of challenging some of the some of the environments, but also challenging and changing things within their own unions.
Roger McKenzie – 51:43
A word of caution, really, I would say, because, I mean, I’m still doing work with the Fire BKs union, particularly the, around race still.
Roger McKenzie – 51:55
And one of the things that they are clear about is that, things have slipped over the years.
Roger McKenzie – 52:02
So there’s this thing about, you know, it’s for been forever vigilance.
Roger McKenzie – 52:07
And forever trying to move things on, and to make sure that things don’t slide back into an era that we kind of hoped we’d seen the back of.
Ben Stevenson – 52:07
Yeah.
Ben Stevenson – 52:21
I mean, I remember I was still working, for DISA at the time, and dealing with London Underground.
Ben Stevenson – 52:31
And we were dealing with a noticeable spike in incidents that were being reported, but to staff verbal assaults, violent assaults.
Ben Stevenson – 52:43
And this was at a time where there were there’d just been mass redundancies, and more and more staff were working alone.
Ben Stevenson – 52:50
Who just closed ticket offices, so they were working on the platforms as well.
Ben Stevenson – 52:55
So, you know, it’s definitely been something that has been bubbling away.
Ben Stevenson – 53:02
And like you say, for some people, that experience of racism just hasn’t gone away.
Ben Stevenson – 53:08
You know?
Ben Stevenson – 53:08
It might have lessened a bit for a bit, but, in a sense, it’s always been there.
Ben Stevenson – 53:14
And, you know, it I think it’s always will be whilst we still got the oppressive system that we live under.
Ben Stevenson – 53:22
You know?
Roger McKenzie – 53:22
Well, I think I think Engels kind of said a good thing about all of this stuff.
Roger McKenzie – 53:26
He talks about the zigs and zags of, kind of progress in societies.
Roger McKenzie – 53:31
I mean, I think that’s what we did it with in terms of race as well.
Roger McKenzie – 53:35
Sometimes it’s going in the right direction and sometimes, you know, even feels better sometimes.
Roger McKenzie – 53:44
But I tell you what, so Black Lives Matter movements.
Roger McKenzie – 53:53
I was saying at the time, I’ve been I’ve been here before.
Roger McKenzie – 53:55
Right?
Roger McKenzie – 53:56
I’ve seen people, you know, who get quite performative about this stuff.
Roger McKenzie – 54:02
So with the Black Lives Matter, you couldn’t you couldn’t turn around for tripping over somebody who was taking a knee basically, you know, I mean you get all of that stuff happening but they wouldn’t do anything within their own organizations to do with the racism and that actually the Labour Party is a really good example of that.
Roger McKenzie – 54:19
So Starmer’s there taking the knee, Black Lives Matter and yet completely ignores a report that’s been done about racism within his own organisation and the way that people like Diana Abbott was treated by his own organisation, but he wants to take a knee to show Black Lives Matter.
Roger McKenzie – 54:36
And, you know, one of the things that that I’m pretty kind of convinced about with pretty much every black person that I talk about who’s involved in politics and who’s not, is that there’s a real clarity about when people are taking the piss, frankly, and when people are just lying to us, and where people are just pretending that they’re really interested.
Roger McKenzie – 55:03
Because we’ve been there before.
Roger McKenzie – 55:04
We’ve experienced it in workplaces where people say, yeah, yeah, you know, really, you know, interested in some of my best friends are black and all of this sort of stuff.
Roger McKenzie – 55:13
And then and then they and then they treat people like rubbish.
Roger McKenzie – 55:18
And we’ve been there.
Roger McKenzie – 55:20
We’ve seen it.
Roger McKenzie – 55:21
We’ve got the t shirt and it’s time for that stuff to stop.
Roger McKenzie – 55:25
And the only way that it stops actually is again going back to where we started really, that collective organization where black and white people not just black people where black and white people see unity between us as being critically important for our class to make any progress and that’s what it look that’s what it always comes down to.
Roger McKenzie – 55:48
So convincing white people that race is important because and without it without race you know unity between black and white people we’re not going to make any progress.
Roger McKenzie – 56:02
But also important as well convincing a lot of black people that it is important as well because it’s not just like a lot of white people who think that well, there’s no point in coming together because of their experiences quite often of racism.
Roger McKenzie – 56:17
There’s a lot of black people who think we’re also putting me getting involved in it.
Roger McKenzie – 56:20
They’ll just let me down again.
Roger McKenzie – 56:22
So there’s a job of work to be done there as well.
Roger McKenzie – 56:22
Yeah.
Roger McKenzie – 56:26
But without that unity, we aren’t gonna tackle these employers who are not progressive, who are not trying to deal with, issues of racism within the workplace.
Roger McKenzie – 56:37
And more importantly for me, who are not seeing the real roots of this racism, where it actually comes from.
Roger McKenzie – 56:43
Because again where we started unless you understand the roots you’re not going to be able to understand how to go about dealing with it.
Ben Stevenson – 57:06
Join us next time for an interview with East Midlands Artists about the arts and cultural scene and what it is to be a working class artist today.
Ben Stevenson – 57:18
Until next time.
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